Author Topic: Import other file formats in VNL?  (Read 17409 times)

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Offline Emilio_bassini

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2010, 23:15 »
First of all thanks for the fast answare
I'm sorry but i've been using the 2008 version of the program...have you any other suggestion?

Offline Anders Blom

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2010, 08:46 »
First of all, unless you have a pressing reason to keep using 2008.10, you really should upgrade :)

However, the scripts made for 2008.10 work, if you use them properly. It's hard to tell what goes wrong based on the information provided. You say there is an error message but you don't share it with us...

In general, don't drop this script on the Job Manager, but run it from the command line. Also make sure to match the location of the xyz script to the "sys.path" statement in the script itself.

Offline zhangguangping

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #17 on: August 3, 2011, 14:12 »
The reason this script fails is because it is written for ATK 2008.10. In the new version you are using (10.8.x), it's much simpler: you can just drop your xyz file onto any instrument in VNL and use it directly!

If you haven't yet, please have a look at the tutorials to get to terms with some of the basics in VNL/ATK.


Dear Anders Blom,

In 2008.10, one can import xyz format into VNL through "Result Browser". And if we use the sript in the topic, one can easily export xyz format.
However, in 11.2, one can export xyz format easily. (anyway, is there a method to export a twoprobe system with the two electrodes?), but it seems there is no way to import xyz into vnl.

Any reply will be appreciated.

Guangping

Offline Anders Blom

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #18 on: August 3, 2011, 14:25 »
To import an XYZ file in VNL 11.2, just drop it on the Builder.

You mean export a two-probe as XYZ, with electrodes included? No, not by default. Wouldn't be hard to write a Python script for it though ;)

Offline zhangguangping

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #19 on: August 3, 2011, 15:20 »
To import an XYZ file in VNL 11.2, just drop it on the Builder.

You mean export a two-probe as XYZ, with electrodes included? No, not by default. Wouldn't be hard to write a Python script for it though ;)


Dear Anders Blom,

The first question is solved. When I droped the xyz onto the "Builder", it can be opened normally. But when I use the "open" menu to find the xyz file to open it in "Builder", error accurs as the attachment shown. And the path of the xyz file has no chinses characters.
Should we add the atk and vnl bin path to the PATH variable of window?

As the second question, I used to imitate the way you used in 2008.10 like use "twoprobe.equivalentBulkSystem()" instead of "twoprobe" but there is no such functionality in 11.2.

Angyway, the first problem is solved.


Thank you very much Anders Blom.

Offline Anders Blom

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #20 on: August 3, 2011, 21:27 »
Actually, the "Open" functionality in the Builder is only intended to open Python files. Not 100% obvious, I admit, but that's how it works. The main workflow, for now, in VNL is via drag-and-drop, also for opening files.

As for exporting the "whole" two-probe, a relevant question in this case is "why"? Because: in old ATK (2008.10 and earlier), the active device region - by which we mean the atoms between the two points at which the bias voltage is applied - indeed covered left electrode-central-right electrode. This is no longer the case; in ATK 10.8 and onwards, the bias is applied only over the central cell. This is why, partly, the central cell should contain a copy of the electrodes inside, but most importantly it has allowed us to implement the most correct form of boundary conditions of any transport code.

So, the electrodes in "new ATK" are just bulk, there is no voltage drop and no rearrangement of the electron density (as there was, indeed, in "old ATK"). Therefore, for almost all purposes, the current central cell does in fact correspond to the old "equivalent bulk". Hence, the need to export the combined LE+C+RE system is perhaps not that relevant.


Offline zhangguangping

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #21 on: August 4, 2011, 17:53 »
Actually, the "Open" functionality in the Builder is only intended to open Python files. Not 100% obvious, I admit, but that's how it works. The main workflow, for now, in VNL is via drag-and-drop, also for opening files.

As for exporting the "whole" two-probe, a relevant question in this case is "why"? Because: in old ATK (2008.10 and earlier), the active device region - by which we mean the atoms between the two points at which the bias voltage is applied - indeed covered left electrode-central-right electrode. This is no longer the case; in ATK 10.8 and onwards, the bias is applied only over the central cell. This is why, partly, the central cell should contain a copy of the electrodes inside, but most importantly it has allowed us to implement the most correct form of boundary conditions of any transport code.

So, the electrodes in "new ATK" are just bulk, there is no voltage drop and no rearrangement of the electron density (as there was, indeed, in "old ATK"). Therefore, for almost all purposes, the current central cell does in fact correspond to the old "equivalent bulk". Hence, the need to export the combined LE+C+RE system is perhaps not that relevant.



Dear Anders Blom,

Thank you very much for your reply.

From your reply, I realize a mistake I made in the construction of the model before.

And yesterday, I found the tutorial on the web that says the bias is applied over the device region  (or the so called central region) and the two electrodes as shown in the attachemt. As you say in ATK 2008.10 there should include a copy of the left and right electrode in the device region. As I understand, the device region should consist of the molecule or some else one wants to investigate and some surface layers of the electrodes at the left and right of the molecule. The surface layers here are used to eliminate the interactions of the molecule and the left and right electrodes and let the left and right electrode cell at each side are in real bulk situation. So if the electrode cell is made up of 3 layers, and 1 or 2 layers are enough for the surface layers there is no neceesary to include 3 layers or more in the deivce region each side (i.e. there is no nessary to include a copy of electrodes in the deive region) if the left and right electrodes are not only used to do a bulk calcualtion.

If the left and right electrode in the VNL constrution is just used to do a bulk calculation and obtain the self engery of the electrodes. There should indeed include a copy of the left and right electrodes in the device region (as the attachment shown the device region consist of C + L+ R), and they are used to keep density of the bulk electrodes. And if we contrain the density of the electrode to the bulk value, the desity of the L and R in device region should not change in the iterations but provides a boudary condition. And at this time, the copy of the electrodes in the device region indeed are bulk electrode, so the bias should not drop during this setion, and should be applied over the C (contact) region.

Is there  something for my understand? Please correct me.

Best regards.

Guangping
« Last Edit: August 4, 2011, 17:59 by zhangguangping »

Offline Anders Blom

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #22 on: August 5, 2011, 11:48 »
I fear we are mixing the two versions 2008.10 and 11.2 in the discussion.

The picture you attached applies to 2008.10.

For 11.2, what you specify in the script as the central region, is what in 2008.10 would have been specified separately as L, C, and R.

Thus in 2008.10 you do NOT have an electrode copy inside the central region, in 11.2 you do.

Note that the computational effort is exactly the same in the two models, because internally 2008.10 will use the equivalent bulk (L+C+R) for the device calculation. The real difference between the two approaches is related to where you place the boundary conditions for the effective potential and whether you treat the electrodes in the device region as bulk-like (2008.10) or self-consistently (11.2); the latter is much more physically correct, and contributes to the improved convergence performance of ATK 11.2.

In both models, extra surface layers are needed between the molecule and the electrodes for screening, as you say.

Offline zhangguangping

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #23 on: August 6, 2011, 07:21 »
Dear Anders Blom,

Thanks for yor reply very much.

Quote
The picture you attached applies to 2008.10.

2008.10 will use the equivalent bulk (L+C+R) for the device calculation.

The real difference between the two approaches is related to where you place the boundary conditions for the effective potential and whether you treat the electrodes in the device region as bulk-like (2008.10) or self-consistently (11.2)

In both models, extra surface layers are needed between the molecule and the electrodes for screening, as you say.
As you say, in ATK 2008, device region is L+C+R and the bias is applied over the device region. And that is to say, there is voltage drop over the L and R electrode. Yet, 2008 can treats the L and R as bulk and they do not participate in the self-consistent iteration of NEGF. My question is : since the L and R electrodes are treated as bulk, why there is voltage drop? The bias is expected to be applied over the C region.

As far as I know, in ATK 2008, one can choose to let the L and R participate in the self-consistent iteration of NEGF if I am not mistaken (Is it different from that of ATK 11.2 ?). So if this can improve convergence performance, one can choose this option by himself. In ATK 11.2, as you say, it is forced to this option.

I think if there is enough surface layers in C region in ATK 2008, the L and R can be safely set to bulk value and need not to take part in the self-consistent process of NEGF. So as in ATK 11.2 since the surface layers are also needed, the self-consistent of the copy of L and R in central region (defined in 11.2) will enlarge the burden of the calculation (?).

Is there something I miss which results in the misunderstand of this issue? Please give some instructions.

Best regards.

Guangping
« Last Edit: August 6, 2011, 07:34 by zhangguangping »

Offline Anders Blom

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #24 on: August 7, 2011, 18:03 »
As you say, in ATK 2008, device region is L+C+R and the bias is applied over the device region. And that is to say, there is voltage drop over the L and R electrode. Yet, 2008 can treats the L and R as bulk and they do not participate in the self-consistent iteration of NEGF. My question is : since the L and R electrodes are treated as bulk, why there is voltage drop? The bias is expected to be applied over the C region.

As far as I know, in ATK 2008, one can choose to let the L and R participate in the self-consistent iteration of NEGF if I am not mistaken (Is it different from that of ATK 11.2 ?). So if this can improve convergence performance, one can choose this option by himself. In ATK 11.2, as you say, it is forced to this option.

The bias voltage drop is indeed applied over L+C+R (in 2008.10 notation).

There is no option in 2008.10 to let L/R be fully self-consistent. The various constraints (Off, DensityMatrix, and RealSpaceDensity) all contain some approximation which make L/R not fully bulk-like. In all cases, the effective potential in L and R is self-consistent, and that's why you can have a voltage drop over L and R. On the other hand this means, since the Hamiltonian and/or density (depending on the constraint used) is bulk-like, that you have a mismatch in this region between the solution to the Poisson equation and the Schrödinger equation. This was the method used from the beginning in TranSIESTA (also in the current "new" version of it, I believe) and older versions of ATK, and it can sometimes cause big convergence problems.

In "new ATK" we have eliminated this mismatch with a more advanced implementation, which treats L+C+R fully self-consistently. To do this technically, we decided to make the new C = old L+C+R, however the computational burden is exactly the same for "new C" and "old device", as they contain equally many atoms. We also believe that this, together with a more complete treatment of matrix elements near the boundaries of the system, has contributed to much better convergence in ATK 11.2 (already 10.8, actually).

I think if there is enough surface layers in C region in ATK 2008, the L and R can be safely set to bulk value and need not to take part in the self-consistent process of NEGF. So as in ATK 11.2 since the surface layers are also needed, the self-consistent of the copy of L and R in central region (defined in 11.2) will enlarge the burden of the calculation (?).

Indeed, in the limit of infinitely many surface layers both methods are equivalent. But the real difference is that in the 2008.10 method, the fewer surface layers the stronger the mismatch between the Hamiltonian and the potential becomes, while in new ATK all regions are always fully self-consistent. Thus it's still an approximation in new ATK to have too few layers, but you always have L and R inside C to provide some screening.

But since L and R provide screening in 11.2, you can in fact use fewer surface layers in 11.2 than in 2008.10, so the computational burden would be less. Imagine you decide you need 8 surface layers in a 2008.10 calculation, and the electrode has 2 layers. So your calculation will have 10 layers (on each side). But in 11.2, we can let 2 of the screening layers be part of the electrode copy, and just add 6 "free" surface layers. Thus we only need 8 layers in total in the central region.

This arithmetic only works, as I think you have understood, if the number of surface layers is quite large; if you have say fcc (111) with 3 layers as electrode, and 2 screening layers in 2008.10, I would recommend also having 2 free screening layers + the 3 layers from the electrode copy in 11.2. The good news is, however, that for the same computational effort, you will have better screening in 11.2.

Offline zhangguangping

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Re: Import other file formats in VNL?
« Reply #25 on: August 8, 2011, 04:23 »
Dear Anders Blom,

Thanks for your detailed clarification. It indeed makes me much more clear about this issue.

With best regards.

Wish you happy everyday.

Yours

Guangping